Wow.. stop spreading rumors and talking about things when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Microsoft has a fixed number of consoles they will ban? Are you serious?

First off, Microsoft probably does not even keep a log of people turning on their xboxes without the dvd-rom plugged in and even if they did it won't get you banned because that could also mean a faulty dvd-rom drive that isn't reporting correctly.

M$ does not ban unless they are 100% sure your console has had a backup in it!

I have The Darkness and Forza which fail Kreon check. Quite a bit before Halo3.

Not sure what to conclude. Also m25/28 xbox Sammy's produce consistent results.

I have Kreon ripped Orange Box and Jericho for test purpose and the SS was different between the 2 rips I performed, fail Kreon first time, all gravy second time.

Muz

Now for some facts:

PGR4 is definately NOT in the XDVD 10.2 database correctly..this game is fairly new and it will rip perfectly with BOTH XBC2.7 and Scrotom3.4, (both Kreon .81 and 1.00 makes no difference) but the key here is when you check the .ISO with latest XDVD Mulleter 10.2 beta, it reports that the CRC fails and when it repairs it, it corrupts the SS....thus KREON CHECKER will report that PGR4 is a "BAD RIP"...but if you leave it alone and DO NOT repair it with XDVD Mulleter 10.2 beta, then and ONLY then does KREON CHECKER pass....so for this game rip ONLY with Scrotom 3.4 and DO NOT let XDVD Mulleter 10.2 beta corrupt it with that autorepair feature.

this means IMHO undeniable 100% documented proof that XDVD Mulleter 10.2 has a bad SS database file and is corrupting the PGR4 . iso image when it tries to repair it...

now this is NOT true with any of the other 20 games big title games released in the last 2 calandar months...this seems to be a PGR4 issue and a direct incompatability with XDVD Mulleter 10.2 on-line autorepair database.

This reminds of the Star Trek Legacy game ripping problem when XBC was at v2.5

What I did NOT test is doing a direct rip using my Hirachi 79FL and Scrotom3.4...my guess is, it wont make any difference as compared to ripping it with Kreon .81 or 1.00, but it is a premutation that need to be checked anyway for confirmation.

I don't think KREON is the problem, I think its more that XDVD Mulleter is a sloppily manage database....and he should disable that feature and let us manage our own SS. This program is become very dangerous to use and the more I study this problem the more I am convinced it is large reason for the recent banhammer..perhaps its the largest problem greater than the disk jitter theory (which BTW I still do not understand that technical explanation which to me sounded like techno babble and was NOT explained in simpler logical terms)

Be very careful using XDVD Mulleter 10.2 beta on PGR4....this is one big title game I am postive it is corrupting via that poorly maintained SS database.

the two programs that are dangeroous to use now are BOTH XBC2.7 and XDVD mULLETER 10.2...THE COMBINATION OF USING THOSE TWO PROGRAMS TOGETHER IS VERY DANGEROUS.

use ONLY scrotom3.4..its always seems to have the best track record...plus it reads at 6X which is smarter..I am very surprised REDLINE uses 12x as the default for reading speed of XBC2.7....doesn't REDLINE understand yet that is way too fast?

p.s.
Is that really Mulleter's picture when you first launch his program?

I can't belive any human being would have such an ugly hair cut and want the world to see it...he looks like a character straight out of the Rocky Horror Picture show with a Chia Pet growing out the top......:-)

Jitter is random, that's why the results are unrepeatable. When you rip with a Kreon, you have jitter. That means the value of the disc angle will not necessarily be exact but will be within a certain tolerance. That's why you can rip one of these titles one time and have it fail, then rip it again and have it pass--or why one person's rip is safe, and another person's rip can get them banned. The Kreon Checker examines this value and, taking into account the effects of iXtreme, will warn you if the value could end up being reported as > 359, because it should wrap around to zero, but the current iXtreme does not do this and incorrectly reports it as 360. The same applies to Xtreme.

No one is lying; to the best of my understanding this is all accurate. Please join #Stealth360 in EFnet if you wish to interrogate with the people who write these tools we all enjoy. They can explain it to you as it was explained to me.


Not sure about the older games, maybe it started earlier than Halo 3. They are still trying to figure out how long this has been a potential problem as this has all just been realized within the last few days.

As I said, the Samsungs don't introduce jitter.

Your Kreon results show what I've explained--one rip is unsafe, the next is all gravy. It's all in the handling of the jitter.

By the way, the tools which calculate the CRC value of the SS specifically exclude the disc angle, which is why you can get different Kreon Checker results even when the CRC is the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong!
1) An update of Kreon firmware should be expected for SAMSUNG SH D162C drives for this jiter issue.
2) An update of iXtreem firmware should make those Bad Kreon Rip safe (at least as safe as possible).
3) It doesn't matter if the backups are Good or Bad Kreon Rips for those latest games because iXtreem firmware could still possibly return wrong response Jitter wise?

has c4 or any of the other head hanchos verified that no added checks are being done?





again, where is your evidence to support this? Like I said I have modded several consoles using this method and none of them are banned. And why would MS spare people they knew were modding?

I've been scanning all night and i have a few to add: motogp 07, sega rally revo, lego star wars: the complete saga, and cars mater national championships.

all 4 of these failed the kreon checker. Sorry if this is a repost of info i didnt have time to read through all 18 pages, and wanted to get this info out.

C4EVA just announced ixtreme 1.4 for Samsung is complete, should be released shortly...Hitachi and Benq should be tomorrow.

Makes some sense I must admit!

So just to conclude based on your statement : The difference between two rips is only in the data produced from the angle, which can have acceptible tollarances and can be differnt even between two GOOD rips.

The issue is when this value exceeds tollerance - iXtreame will not deal with it as expected in contrast to what the retail firmware would report back.

Can we get some technical detail on this for those of us curious? - Is it the DMI, the PFI, or neither?

Muz

I don't mean to get in your face, but the program you are referring to is called "Schtrom 3.4", named after its creator Kai Schtrom. If you feel the need to have a little fun with your scrotum while doing your backups, it's totally fine, we're open minded here.

Regarding the topic: Isn't it kind of useless that people are still posting their "bad" Kreon Security Sectors of games? As I understand the issue, Disc Jitter is a signal variance, so it doesn't mean anything if people post specific backups that gave a bad SS.bin because it is not universally applicable (i.e. ripping the game again could give a "good" SS.bin and not everyone else who ripped said game has a bad SS.bin just because someone postet that he got a bad SS.bin). The only merit such information would have is if we were to discuss scene releases, which we absolutely should not do, since the thread would -again- get closed.

Has anyone considered making a Backup Tool using the information provided in this quote? Because I don't know how to use all the stuff in the above instructions and I'm probably too much of a newb to understand it.
I was gonna use XBC because I thought it would be the easiest all-in-one tool but now I'm not.



And also people keep saying o why use this Kreon junk the xbox 360 drive is the best for ripping. Well I would agree if I knew how in the hell to do it? Because it would be better than buying a specific samsung dvd-rom and worrying about this goofy hoo ha about the SS.Bin

I don't fully understand why there hasn't been a new program relaesed and what not but in the mean time I'll just wait it out and see what happens

Well, this all happened within the past couple of days. They are working on handling the situation. New firmware tonight / tomorrow. XDVDMulleter will be updated, as well as any other program involved most likely. Props to everyone involved, actually: I only FOUND OUT about all this stuff today, and its almost already taken care of.

BTW

I put my backup in my pc dvd drive, used imgburn in read mode to put the iso on my hd, extracted the ss from that iso with XBC, and checked said SS with Kreon Checker. It said it was ok. Was that a correct method for checking this, and if so, does that mean it is safe? I have iextreme 1.2 rev 2.

Yeah, that's a fine method, although you don't have to rip the entire disc just to rip the SS.

C4Eva says the Samsung 1.4 firmware is finished and the others will be done by tomorrow.

Yes it should be ok. Apparently a "bad" SS from Kreonchecker means its possible you could get an invalid data reading from that particular SS. Sorry for the vague answer but I don't know more than that.

How can I rip just the SS? If I tryr to extract the SS from my backup in my pc dvd drive with XBC, I can't point it to an iso, because the disc only shows Audio_TS and Video_TS folders.

I use Schtrom, just point to your DVD-ROM and extract the SS, then run Kreon Checker. But it is totally irrelevant now, since the stealth firmware is being fixed.

True, but I'll grab that program for the heck of it. Will backups that were burned before this be safe with the new firmware? I am assuming yes, but hearing it from someone else may help me walk away from my pc, rest my Live-loving mind, and sleep.

Any idea how the new firmware works? Does it simply not let backups with invalid sectors play, or does it avoid the issue entirely by reporting jitter >359 as 0?

I'm told that it just loops to zero if it jitters > 359, as it should have all along.

Any discs that say "bad" Kreon will be safe after this new firmware. This doesn't change the fact that SS and everything else must be valid or you can get banned.

I'm not sure at the moment, i'd rather wait for the NFO and then ask questions instead of posting something i'm not sure of.

so basically then what you are saying is even after this new ixtreme is out the backups made on XBC still could not be safe? or will this finally be 100% exact as an orginal disc, i wouldnt have thought we are far off been totally safe on live after all the research/work c4eva has done,

also will kreon always be less safe than using a dedicated samsung drive?

sorry to sound so thick!

hi,

i have maked the patch for the bad ss.bin, pls can some one send me These bad ss for doing more test before the release.

tanks

That´s some great news! :-)

I do have two questions though: Do you guys think that adding splitvid migh be safer on all backups? I mean, should we re-rip and fix our entire backup collection?

And i´m having some mixed results with mulleter and Schrom, the same backup seems valid for one and invalid for the other (specifically my Assassin´s Creed goes green on Schrom and red on Mulleter). What now? Should we wait for an update on those tools or it´s not going to happen? Anyone knows?

Guys,

I have some bad SS games and have played them online. When I stop playing them right now, can I still get banned? can I keep playing my "good SS" games online? Or can I keep playing my bad SS games offline? (will my xbox remember I have played a bad SS game offline?)

thanx alot!

no one knows mate, it could store the details on ur box it might not, only ms knows the answer! I would think if you arent banned now you should be safe though.


also interesting that its obvious now that MS cant read the firmware off the dvd drive, i can remember last year people worrying about the firmware getting read of the drive and been compared to known good ones etc.. and then there was the business of the hitachi stealth firmware,

no update yet though has as far as i know attempted to read the firmware of the drive

Not on Xbins yet... not sure what to do.

I just wanted to say i have been banned recently but i must say i have a different idea as to why i have been banned then everyone here! I was ok up until i tryed a new memerex dual layer disk that was 8x speed. once i tryed that the game started then cut off ,disk read error. i didnt know the disk were meant for just 8x speed until my friend looked at the top of the disk and noticed they were indeed different from the regular 2.4 speed I was always ok with. to add more my friend was banned the first time also when he used a verbatim 8x speed during the first ban hammer! me and him firmly believe this yes it is the disk microsoft picks up maybe microsoft console doesnt use 8x speed and thats the problem. any one else banned using 8x speed disks?

I just heard that the new firmware update coming soon for iXtreme fw (Sammy/Hitachi/BenQ) to compensate for part of the kreon issue. Also new Kroen firmware suppose to be coming out. And the Sammy ixtreme 1.4 is in testing.

can i get banned for playing bad kreon ripped game offline and go online with some other game later??

firs thing first
thanks for all the research and everything that is going on
second sorry if i misspell some words
now to the point

OLDGAMER2008
the recommended burning speed for a backup is 2.4 the whole reason for this speed is so that i can be burned properly if the speed is increase you are loosing quality over speed.
in other words the faster it burs the worser the quality.

The burn speed has nothing to do with being banned. Burn speed will only effect how well the data is burnt to the disc. As for microsofts console not using 8x, retail games are pressed not burnt.

I have always burned my discs at 8x using my pioneer 111D and 8x verified verbatims. I'd say i was never banned, but that would be a lie. I was banned during the first ban hammer, but only because one of my games i played daily was unstealthed. A friend with a console i modded and backed up all his games for him was not banned because all his games passed stealthchecks as stealth was around at this point.

I was checking my back ups from disc (Dvd-Dl) for bad kreon rips with mulleter 10.2 and I did quite a few
then out of nowhere it started saying no disc in drive or drive not responding so I thought it was my disc but I put in a disc that was fine and that it (mulleter 10.2) read and the ss.bin was extracted and check as good kreon rip just to find out that when I reloaded the same disc when it started saying that error, I got the same bull:no disc in drive or drive not responding but I know it was fine because I checked it before. I have 2 dvd drives and 2 burners and the same thing:no disc in drive or drive not responding, I rebooted and still no good...does anyone know whars going on. I know my drives are good, Have no idea why out of nowhere mulleter 10.2 would start doing this: no disc in drive or drive not responding. I really dont want to rip the whole disc just to get the ss.bin. does anyone know a solution?

I got this error once or twice, it was eiether one of two things.

It reads better in the DVD Burner than the DVD Rom Drive.

Also for me when i put the disc in, the Drive light stays constantly on for about 10 seconds, when the light goes off i then click the Load ISO button and it loads almost instantly. As if your pressing the Load button straight away your PC wouldn't have picked up the disc yet. Thats what happened to me anyway.

Do you not get the Windows AutoPlay?

yeah i get the window autoplay. for some reason it doesnt recongnize one of my dvd burner drives?
I'll try it again later on I hope its ok when I try again later on.

Thanks

OK.....I think it's time to put an end to this madness. Toddler described the problem quite accurately in an earlier post....



The problem is not really related to any of my firmware releases, except for the fact that they are more likely to return an angle of 359 in the SS. The jitter implementation in any of the current iXtreme and Xtreme firmwares does not handle wrapping of angles above 359 correctly, which can lead to an angle of 360 or more being returned by the firmware. Since any value above 359 is out of bounds, it is rather easy to detect, but it will only happen when the SS contains an angle of 359 and the (I)xtreme jitter adds a value of 1 or more to this angle. Only the combination of a 359 angle in the SS and a jitter value of 1 or more being added to this angle will result in an invalid value - this is also the most probable cause for some people getting banned and some staying clear, even if they're playing the same release of a game.

The upcoming (I)xtreme firmware releases will include a fix for the missing angle wrapping. With this in place, I expect the problem to be solved once and for all.

To sum it all up, there is no such thing as a bad Kreon rip. The only truth to this is, that rips made using any of the Kreon firmwares are more likely to include that very unfortunate 359 angle, that will make the (I)xtreme firmwares return invalid angle values from time to time.

Please stop panicing and stay cool til we know if the new (I)xtreme firmwares have solved the problem.

/Kreon

first post after kreon!

Thanks for the info

one thing that confuses me should all backups have a split vid to be safe, and older backups with out this have to be re burnt.

I disagree totally!

BOTH KREON v1.00 and C4EVa ixtereme 1.2 etc... are both equally flawed and its this "combination" of potential errors that is causing this cascading banhammer problem:

I quote KREON:

"rips made using any of the Kreon firmwares are more likely to include that very unfortunate 359 angle"

That's means your software too is also flawed you said it yourself...so don't be soo sure your NOT partially to blame...

so in effect your leaving the backdoor open for improper recognition by Ixtereme....sure C4eva made the initial mistake, but your KREON .81 and 1.00 software are BOTH allowing this ixtereme disk jittre problem to be cascading and you were NOT screening for it properly with KREON.

The minute I read this I suspected the easisest fix is NEW KREON and then rebuild ALL our game libary ISO's...i still belive that is is the only safe solutiuon...and hoping for a new Ixtereme to cloak our already flawed KREON rips is ludicrous and very dangerous...the less we rely on ixtereme to cloak bad KREON rips the better.

so BOTH Kreon and C4eva are to blame for this mistake...it is NOT one or the other...both you guys are NOT working closely enough together...his software is vulnerablke if your rips are not 100% accurate.

this is the way I interpret it...both you guys NEED to update your software...not one or the other but BOTH!

we will need KREON firmware that anticipates this random 359 angle mistake and adds redudancy checks to filter out after a comprehensive ISO verification to ensure it not included in the intial rip.

[b]WHY ARE YOU WAITING FOR C4EVA to release a fix, you need to release a new KREON first before he can cloak ariund your problem...and if you can't do it then release your SOURCE CODE publically to others so we can manage this problem moving forward. Stop waiting for him to fix your Kreon ripping problems?[/b]

can you compile new Keon v1.1 to add redundancy checks for that potential random adulterating 359 angle issue and filter them out so we can use old ixterem1.2 safely and NOT wait for C4eva to release a spoofing workaround fix.

this reminds me of the same problem with SplitVid...C4eva, RedLine and Kreon are NOT talking to each other guys and this is why this "mysterious 359 angle" has apperaed on the scene so abruptly...I wonder just how many more potential "ripping" issues remain unknown?

my trust in KREON is dropping rapidly expecially after I what I just read from him...and it apears after this fiasco that we will all need to rebuild our entire libarries and use the 360 internal DVD to re-rip our libaries properly.....who knows what other flaws remain from those KREON rips bceause if they exists I have no doubt that any ixterem will project us agianst a a flawed KREON rip.


advice:

1. buy an external SATA enclosure ($40)
2. buy an MS28 Samsung--flash it with latest ixtreme ($50-75)
2. re-rip your entire libaries using a 'REAL' samsung MS28 360 DVD player and avoid KREON at all costs.

this is exactly what I intend to do, I have NO TRUST anymore in Kreon expecially after thos contradcitory statements I just read..he is letitng C4eva fix all our problems.

this fiasco means we need to remove KREON drives from our RIPPING equation IMHO.

Gosh....are you stupid or something?? I really shouldn't comment on this, since you do not seem to have any idea what you're talking about. Well...anyway...I can't really fix the problem.....no matter what I do. I could make changes to my firmware, that would exclude the 359 angle to be present in any future rips, but please bear in mind that for most older games, the 359 angle can be found in SS files extracted on an OEM 360 DVD drive as well. For these older releases, even if ripped using a 360 drive, the current (I)xtreme firmwares will still return invalid values, but no one seems to have been banned on this basis yet.

This is really not about who to blame - if you're playing backups, you're always at risc. If you're not willing to accept the risc, I strongly suggest that you stay away from playing backups of any kind in the future.

/Kreon

Your lack of full fact blaming is starting to annoy me.


C4eva, Kreon do a great deal for us. They do this by choice for free. Instead of saying what they need to do etc, try gather more facts. Kreon rips produce different angle variables on the SS.bin. M$ changed something that's why this is evident.

Instead of being disrespectful, why don't you notice this fact? Kreon/C4eva can not account for every possible variable or change Microsoft can make.

Do your method that you feel safe with but stop getting up peoples backs on a public forum.

I've been trying to follow this topic as closely as possible, but it's tough when there are 20 pages of posts, so I'm not sure if my story is even necessary, but I thought it might be helpful - and possibly even relevant - if I shared my experience.

To start off, no - I have not been banned yet.

I somehow survived the initial wave and I wasn't sure how, but most likely it's because I only had one game that wasn't stealthed and I had only played it once, for about 5 minutes or so (and not on Live). I had upgraded to the latest firmware right before that first ban wave (I think it was iXtreme at that point) and did not even play my XBOX at all until the dust started to settle and I felt it was safe.

Now to the latest bannings. I was on vacation when they happened and my XBOX hadn't even been plugged in for a few weeks. I was pretty sure I wasn't banned yet, but I had no way of telling if I would be banned when I returned from vacation and eventually turned it on. Also, I was a little worried because I was pretty sure I didn't have the absolute newest firmware (I have iXtreme 1.2). Regardless, when I got back from vacation, there was still no update, so I didn't even plug it in until there was some good news and I thought I had a chance of surviving. When this update did come out, I was initially worried because I have a couple of games on that list that may possibly be a "bad Kreon rip." I checked every one of my games, though, and was very happy to find that I didn't have a single game with a "bad Kreon rip."

I figured if the bannings were triggered by the "bad Kreon rip," I would be ok. If not, I figured I was probably already screwed at that point, so last night I finally fired it up so I could get the new Fall update. I am happy to report that I had no problem getting the new dashboard and I have not been banned. Of course, I have no clue whether the ban would take place right away or not, but I had my XBOX connected for well over an hour last night with no problem.


Some other notes:

• Because I like to design my own disc art and print them directly to the discs, I have only used Ritek RiData or Playo inkjet printable DVD+R DL discs. The only disc I ever used with a shiny top was a Memorex and that was my first test to see if I could get a backup running. I'm sure this irrelevant, but I thought I should mention it.
• I've upgraded the firmware a few times when new versions are released, but every time I've done it, I've always flashed back to the original firmware first. I'm not sure if this means anything either, but I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that it's probably a good idea.

Wow. Do I speak for everyone when I say..."what a dick!"? If you're so great, and knowledgeable, why not make your own firmware?? I love the "experts" who call out the hard working individuals who give us their work for free and ask nothing in return. Without them, none of us would be enjoying the hobby we are. I give my thanks to Kreon, C4Eva, Schtrom, and everyone else who give so much and ask for nothing!

staple123 shut the fuck up you moron. Should be great full for the shit C4eva and Kreon do for us FOR FREE.

People believe KREON then this moron staple123.

If you flash your drive or play backups that its the risk YOU took. If something happens you have only your self to blame.

I completely agree. I hate when a few bad seeds ruin it for the rest of us. It's a good thing I'm not coding firmware, because I would probably quit after a bs post like that. Nobody should have to put up with that... especially someone who goes out of their way to create something for free to help others. Unbelievable.

Let me just take this opportunity to thank all of you that have put in the effort to make any of this possible.

Ok people calm down here... Everybody do have valuable points but there's no need to escalate.

Kreon and Stapple thank you for your time investment in the current matter.


Everybody is now free to follow which way to go and do their thing while knowing the possible consequences.

On one side : You have the opportunity of redoing everything from scratch while using the original 360 dvd drive and cross your fingers.

On the other side : You can simply reflash and go with the flow and cross your fingers.

But in any cases don't think that you're completely safe. Kreon, C4A and the others only know so much. So I think that it is ok to say that there may very well be more Bans to come whether you choose one way or the other simply because Microsoft more about the 360 than anyone.

So for now do whatever you can to cover your butts
and go live to show everybody who rocks!

(ok that was a lame rhyme! lol!)

So does anyone no if older backups need to be redone with sptitvid thank you

Hi!

I checked a Need for Speed Pro Street rip with KreonChecker, and it gave me as the SS is a Bad Kreon Rip.

But, when I use the AutoFix in xdvdmulleter, it says that the ISO is perfect and no need for fixing. Ayone knows how can I fix this SS.bin file?

Thanks

Re-rip from your original again.

You know staple, some would be more open to your thoughts if you would attempt to be less demanding and more supportive. That kind of attitude isn't going to get you anywhere with anyone. Sure there was an unforseen glitch in the system, but unless you can do it better, you really have no right to complain.

If you don't like it, don't use it my friend.

i dont get my most recent game was prg4 and i have played it no bannings but are we talking about with this new dashbaord update becuase i havent updated yet im holding it off but in the mean time it signes me out, Should i update? And how do i use kreon checker?